Measure Matters
A podcast that delves into the world of metrology and pressure calibration.
In each episode, we'll unlock the secrets behind accurate measurements and explore the intricate workings of pressure controllers, deadweight testers, transducers, and differential pressure transmitters. From understanding the fundamental principles to unraveling the complexities of calibration techniques, we'll leave no stone unturned.
We discover the vital role that metrology plays in industries such as aerospace, automotive, pharmaceuticals, and more. We'll discuss the significance of precise pressure calibration and its impact on safety, efficiency, and quality across various applications.
Whether you're a seasoned professional in the field or simply curious about the inner workings of high-precision instruments, this podcast aims to provide valuable insights, practical knowledge, and real-world examples that will expand your understanding of metrology and pressure calibration.
Measure Matters
The Ultimate Pressure Regulator Guide
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In this episode of Measure Matters, Sally Pittman sits down with Senior Electrical Engineer, Sam Cain. Sam breaks down different types of regulators, their pros and cons, and how to choose the right regulator for your application.
Welcome back to Measure Matters, the podcast where we dive into all things metrology and calibration. I'm your host, Sally Pittman, and today we are back with a brand new guest, Sam Cain. Sam is a senior electrical engineer here at Mencer, and today he is here to tell us about all things pressure regulators, how they work, how they differ, and the pros and cons of each type.
SPEAKER_01So no need to regulate your patience any longer. Let's jump right in.
SPEAKER_00You're listening to Measure Matters, a podcast by Mencer. Well, hello, Sam.
SPEAKER_01Hey, thanks for having me.
SPEAKER_00Yes, thank you for joining us. So this is your first time on the podcast, but not your first time on our YouTube channel.
SPEAKER_01That's true.
SPEAKER_00How does it feel to be back in the spotlight today?
SPEAKER_01Oh yeah, I'm honored.
SPEAKER_00Um, so how long have you been with Mencer?
SPEAKER_01Um coming up on 10 years now.
SPEAKER_00Wow.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And uh I've been in uh the RD department the the entire time. So yeah, I've been able to work on a variety of different products within that that time, uh, from transducers uh up to pressure controllers and uh and some other stuff as well. So yeah.
SPEAKER_00That's so cool. Um can you explain a little bit about what you do as a senior electrical engineer?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, um mostly um system design uh for our products as well is the nitty-gritty electronics design, which is the PCBs, um, and then uh firmware development as well, and um, you know, leadership type stuff, uh mentoring uh younger engineers as well.
SPEAKER_00So we have a summer intern.
SPEAKER_01We do.
SPEAKER_00So that's cool that you get to be kind of a uh hands-on for that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, I I remember when I was uh an intern, rewarding to uh be able to teach somebody and uh you know kind of watch them grow.
SPEAKER_00That's so cool. Well, we're here to talk about regulators today. So I would love to just start with the basics. Can you explain what a pressure regulator is?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, um, so to use a uh circular definition, um it's a it's a device that regulates pressure. And so um what does that mean? Um it's like um any um energy system, um, like for example, uh a power plant or something kicks out electricity at a really high voltage, and then when it gets to your home, it's been regulated down to some usable uh voltage. So a uh pressure regulator is a similar thing. You um you have some high, usually starting with a higher pressure, and then uh the the regulator is what steps it down to a usable um uh lower pressure.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Okay, cool. And I might be getting another circular definition, but on the flip side, can you explain what a pressure controller is?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's a good question. I I think a lot of people um it's they they can be used as um interchangeable terms. Um generally, though the way we speak about it here at Mincer is a regulator, is kind of the the heart of the controller. Okay. Whereas a controller has all the bells and whistles of a display and a touch screen and communication ports and uh some accessory uh electronics or mechanical gadgets. Um, so a controller would be like a uh ready-to-use um uh uh you know off-the-shelf device that we sell where the regulators want the core component of uh the controller.
SPEAKER_00Okay, so every controller has a regulator.
SPEAKER_01Correct.
SPEAKER_00Okay. Cool. Um, so do you have any analogies for pressure regulators?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, uh I talked about one uh being um like uh, you know, I'm I'm an electrical engineer, so of course my mind goes to um, you know, things like transformers or uh uh voltage regulators on a PCB, uh things like uh uh butt converters and uh boost converters or uh low dropout regulators. Um but in a in a sense, an electronic uh pressure regulator is a control system. And um there, you know, control systems uh are everywhere you look, uh you may just not realize it. I mean, uh some common examples are your cruise control on your car, you set it to go 65 miles per hour and it it regulates that uh that uh that speed. Or your uh oven in your kitchen, you know, you set it to 400 degrees and it regulates uh the temperature. So those are some common ones. Um there's yeah, also all sorts of other ones as well. But yeah, I think most people can probably uh yeah uh relate to those two.
SPEAKER_00So yeah. So when you bring up the example of the oven, I it kind of makes me think like when you set it, it doesn't stop climbing necessarily. It kind of regulates itself to try to get to that exact temperature.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Um, you know, in a in a perfect world, um, you would enter 400 degrees uh, you know, set point, and it would be a perfect step function that would take zero time. Um, but yeah, it doesn't happen that way. So it's it's kind of a ramp function. And then um, if you go over 400, that would be overshoot. Um, and then if you uh oscillate around 400, that would be uh stability um uh measurement. Um and so a pressure regulator is the same way, you know. Uh somebody punches in, I want to control 100 bar. Um in an ideal world, it would happen instantaneously, but uh it has to climb up and um it can overshoot. And so these are things we have to consider when we're uh uh designing and uh uh yeah, designing a pressure regulator.
SPEAKER_00Okay. So when it does overshoot, what part of this tells the output, hey, we've gone too far up, we need to come back down a little bit?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so um a core part of a closed loop um control system is uh it has feedback. And so um, like in your oven, for example, it'll it'll have a temperature sensor within the oven that knows um, hey, we're at 405 degrees. Now we need to turn off the uh heating coil. And so a pressure regulator, um, your sensor, if your set point is X number, let's say 100 bar, and we go to 101 bar, the sensor reports back to the regulator, and then the regulator has some out uh some output that drives some electrovo electromechanical uh device to uh try to bring that back down and try not to go below it and you know get exactly to the desired set point.
SPEAKER_00Um called stability, trying to get it to that set point?
SPEAKER_01Exactly. Yeah. Um when you're at the set point, um you're never, you know, in digital systems like uh, for example, if we say the pressure regulator to go to 100.00000 bar, it's never exactly, you know, an infinite zeros. Uh uh so how closely it it uh wobbles around uh your set point is the control stability.
SPEAKER_00Okay, cool. Um so there are different types of regulators, is that right?
SPEAKER_01That's correct. Yep.
SPEAKER_00Can you talk a little bit about the different kinds?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so um we have a couple of Vincer's pressure regulators in front of us. Um one is the SVR, which stands for solenoid valve regulator. Okay, and the other is an NVR, which stands for needle valve regulator. And so there's some um pros and cons to each one.
SPEAKER_00Um and which one is is this the SVR?
SPEAKER_01So this is the SVR. Um so a lot of these solenoids are in this uh contraption here, and then the the NVR, um they these are the two needle valve regulators. And so both of them you can think about uh essentially there's an orifice, and you have high pressure on one side and a lower pressure on the other side, and uh what we do with that orifice is how you regulate pressure. Okay so on a solenoid valve uh regulator, for example, we're opening and closing that orifice very, very quickly to regulate the pressure. And on the needle valve, we're essentially controlling the size of the orifice. It's the orifice is changing size um from closed to fully open. So it's a it's the uh a solenoid valve is a very binary on or off, but you can do it very quickly.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_01Um, and then the needle valve is there's a lot of it's all gray area, and you can be uh you can be zero percent zero percent closed, you can be a hundred percent open, you can be thirty-three percent open, uh, etc. Okay.
SPEAKER_00So I've heard the needle valve um explained kind of like a pencil in like a three-ring piece of paper. And it kind of the more you let off, the more pressure gets released. Do you have like kind of another analogy that could be used for the uh SVR?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean an SVR would be um instead of instead of a pencil on your uh your three-ring hole, um, you could just put a you know a piece of paper over the hole. And uh what you're doing is you're moving that paper back and forth very quickly. And um, so it it has the same sort of um uh r response where um if it's if it's all the way open, um, then all that pressure from one side is gonna uh flow into the other side. Gotcha. Um and then if you if you want like the NVR, if you wanted it 50% open, maybe on the SVR, you would have the orifice, the the three-ring hole uh open half the time and closed half the time, so we can have a similar type response.
SPEAKER_00Okay. Yeah. So back to like our oven analogy, I'm assuming if it goes over too much, then it would be the other side that opens to relieve the pressure.
SPEAKER_01Yes, exactly. So it's like um I I've been mainly talking about uh one orifice, but that would be like the inlet, and then there's an outlet as well. So you have like some box or however you want to think about it. And you have a small orifice on one side, and uh that's your input, you can control that to go up, and then you have one on the output uh or the outlet, and it is to go down, so you can stabilize on both sides.
SPEAKER_00Okay. Um, and just out of curiosity, is this entire thing considered a regulator? Or would it just be one part of this?
SPEAKER_01Uh, that's a great question. Um, I think you may get different answers from different people, but um I I would consider, yeah, this this SVR, for example, uh a fully built regulator. It, for example, it has um the electromechanical um device for controlling pressure, it has the electronics for driving that, and then it has the the sensor, which is your closed loop feedback, and so the the electronics is what ties this all together. And um, so yeah, this would be a full uh control system pressure regulator at this this portion. You don't need the accessory uh devices, uh but for to make things uh uh user-friendly, you you would.
SPEAKER_00Okay, so this is the guts of a controller.
SPEAKER_01Exactly.
SPEAKER_00Okay, very cool. Um, so you talked about different types. Can you go into some of the pros and cons of each type?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's that's a great question. Um so um with a needle valve regulator, uh, this guy here, um your orifice orfices can be a lot bigger. Um and also uh you the differential, so you know, back to our box or whatever, the the differential is the pressure difference between the the the one side of it and then the uh within the box. The differential can be really great um because of the materials of the the needle valve. And so um at high differentials, um pressure moves very quickly. You get really high flow rates, and so that means for the user they can control pressure a lot faster. Um, so that's that's one benefit. The other benefit is um high differentials uh across a SVR would they can be uh detrimental to the lifetime of the product. Um so um Mincer's SVR, we actually have to control the differential across the uh solenoid valves, and that has some benefits. One is the reliability of the uh the the solenoid valves, they they don't have the full differential, and um but the downside is you have a slower uh your control speed can be slower because of that. But um there's also um yeah, I mean as far as control stability, they both can achieve really uh tight uh control stability windows. Um but yeah, I mean the the main thing is it's it's a trade-off between speed and um reliability.
SPEAKER_00Okay. Um can you break down what you mean by differential when you say differential?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, that that can be a weird weird term. Um uh, you know, a lot of people think of uh cars or something, uh but uh a differential is just a it's just a difference. Um so if we have one needle valve, uh so one orifice, um and it's you know, we're opening and closing that orifice on one side we have let's say 150 bar, and then uh on the other side of the orifice, we have uh zero bar. So the differential would be 150 bar. Um and then the uh the another example, just to make it clear, if we had kept our 150 bar, but now we're at 50 bar, it would be 100 bar.
SPEAKER_00Okay, yeah. So when you're saying like some have high differential versus low differential, it's just a higher difference versus a lower difference.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And um, yeah, I mean, pressure is a highly nonlinear uh system. And so that's why at really high differentials, the the flow rate is is really great.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So you talked about some different types. Um, I want to get into different applications that use the different types. Are there any that come to mind um that you think would be better for like an NVR versus an SVR?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, good good question. Um so uh NVR, um, like one of our products is the CPC 3050. Um it uses uh needle valve regulators, and um it it's a good application for it would be um high volume sensor manufacturing. So if some company is making thousands of sensors uh, you know, a day or you know, even an hour, they have to have some device control the pressure on those sensors to verify them. And so it's like um, you know, time is money, they would need to control those points very quickly. Um whereas an SVR 6050 style regulator may not be able to reach those speeds. But um, on the other hand, an SVR, some good applications would be um uh calibration labs, maybe throughput isn't as high volume, and um or uh the applications where reliability over you know 10 or 20 years is is really critical. Um that would be a good application for uh like a 60-50 style SVR regulator.
SPEAKER_00Okay, so kind of just balancing like efficiency of like maybe production versus like the accuracy you might need.
SPEAKER_01Exactly.
SPEAKER_00Okay, very cool. So how do regulators factor into the whole system of the controller? I know it's the guts, but can you explain a little bit more about where it really fits into the controllers?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, um, well, like you said, I mean, it's it's the the heart of the the controller. Um, you know, uh uh we could design all the coolest bells and whistles imaginable on on a controller, um, but nobody's gonna care if the regulator doesn't work properly. Right. Um so yeah, uh maybe I uh yeah.
SPEAKER_00No, that makes sense. Well, um I think those are all the questions that I have for you today, Sam. Thank you so much for joining us.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, thanks for having me. Uh I hope uh everybody learned something.
SPEAKER_00Thank you for joining us. We hope you enjoyed today's podcast. To listen to more topics, you can visit info.mencer.com forward slash podcast. And if there's a topic you're interested in hearing, you can visit any of our social platforms or leave a comment down below this video. From all of us here at Mencer, you stay classy metrology lovers.